Slow Clothing - Jane Milburn with Morag Gamble

What a pleasure to share this conversation with you today on Sense-Making in a Changing World with my wonderfully talented friend, Jane Milburn.

Jane is a Slow Clothing champion and 2019 Churchill Fellow. She presents a compelling case for why we need to change the way we dress. She is also the founder and creative force of Textile Beat - inspired by her growing understanding of the impacts of our clothes on people and planet, and our own personal health.

Jane published Slow Clothing: Finding meaning in what we wear in 2017 and throughout it presents a new narrative about clothing that is regenerative. Slow clothing is more than just wearing natural clothes . Jane has a whole slow clothing philosophy which she shares through her slow clothing manifesto: think, natural, quality, local, few, care, make, revive, adapt, salvage.

Jane offers a beautiful everyday practical philosophy that is accessible to everyone everywhere, that brings us to wholeness through living more simply, creatively and fairly .

I hope you love this conversation just as much as I did, and see how it's the little things we do that can actually make the world the of difference. 

Since Jane wasn't able to travel this year with her Churchill Scholarship due to COVID, she held a 'virtual Churchill' - zooming with her guests. Check out her interviews on Textile Beat. To make the most of her time, she did her permaculture design course and immediately saw the parallels and calls slow clothing.

"Permaculture Clothing  is Slow Clothing"

________________________________

• Download this list of 10 of Morag's favourite books.
• Morag's 4 part introduction to permaculture video series.

________________________________

LEARN MORE ABOUT THE WORLD OF PERMACULTURE WITH MORAG GAMBLE

Explore the permaculture films, articles, masterclasses and other resources on Our Permaculture Life Youtube channel & blog.

Find out more about the Pe

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the sense-making in a changing world podcast where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I'm your host, Morra gamble, permaculture educator, and global ambassador filmmaker, eco villager, food Forester, mother practice, and around lover of thinking, communicating, and acting regenerative life. For a long time, it's been clear to me, that's a shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life. We first need to shift our thinking. The way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwhile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation in this podcast, I'll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting, and acting, these wonderful people. I think as do, as activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post COVID climate resilient socially, just future could look like their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to composite and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions together will open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco literacy, and much more. I can't wait to share these conversations with you over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face. I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I've seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what's happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I've created the permaculture educators program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online Juul certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global PERMA youth programs. Women's self-help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the permaculture education Institute and our permaculture educators program. If you'd like to find more about permaculture, I've created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and, and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We'd love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I'd also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today. The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging in this episode of sense-making in a changing world. It's my great pleasure to welcome to the show, Jane Melbourne, a great friend of mine. Jane presents a compelling case for why we need to change the way we dress. She's the founder and creative force behind textile beat. She champions slow clothing. She's written a book about this topic too. She loves natural fibers and upcycling. So slow is all really about finding meaning in what we wear. And she says, slow clothing is a creative, ethical, and meaningful way of dressing that engages our head heart and hands. Jane talks about ways of protecting and regenerating the planet through this lens of slow clothing. It's more than just wearing natural clothes. She has a whole slow clothing philosophy and a slow clothing manifesto. And she talks about how secondhand is the new organic and, and mending is good for the soul. So Jane offers is a beautiful everyday practical philosophy, accessible to everyone everywhere that brings us to wholeness through living more simply creatively and fairly. So I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation today with Jane Milburn.

Speaker 2: 4:40

Well, thank you for joining me today on the show Jane and I. So, um, being a Churchill scholar this year, which has been, has been a bit disrupted, and I thought we could talk about that in a minute because that's an amazing thing that you've been doing, but I wanted to just begin with this journey of how does one move from being an agricultural scientist to a slow clothing champion and sustainability consultant. What ha what happened then and what is slow clothing and what drew you into that whole world? Probably easiest. Just to start at the beginning, I grew up on a sheep farm in New Zealand, and that's where I came to love wall natural fibers. And, uh, we, we came to Australia, I did my secondary school and university here and studied agricultural science. We'd had a very farm in between as well. And so that led me to study agriculture that I realized I wasn't actually a scientist per se. And so I did rural journalism know the communication. So my first job was with the ABC as a rural reporter and I was in Victoria that's sheep country as well. So all three, my journey I've had these natural fathers and then I came to Queensland, got married, had three children and, and did, um, rural communications jobs worked with newspapers, the career mile country life. Um, and then, uh, farm groups. I did advocacy work, um, groups. And that was probably where I, um, you know, and that's communicating a message around what's important to them. One of the main ones I did was safety Aussie banana. Well, they straddled banana gross council. And that was a little about, um, uh, pest and disease, you know, a rejection of imports on the basis of pests and diseases. So, you know, over time I, when my, at the child finished school, it was, was just a little bit of transition. I hadn't done a leadership program, you Australian rural leadership program. And that really helped me understand what my values were, what was important to me and with taught to step up and lead wherever we see it's necessary. So when Lily, the child had finished school, it was kind of like, right. Uh, you know, it's a little bit more my time again. Now I don't need to be, um, doing, doing things I don't want to be doing. And so it was really then a search around meaning and purpose for the next phase. And I, it coincided when I was doing the second part of my leadership training. Um, they ran a Plaza factory collapsed in 2013 in Bangladesh. We really had this window into, um, where all the cheap clothes that were just sort of been, you know, enjoying that this arrival of these gifts and not having to worry about clothing because also through my career, I guess I've been following the food story and, you know, how we became aware of where our food came from and wanting to grow more and wanting to have local. So I realized, you know, this combination of things that, um, you know, will, the clothing story was missing in there. We're just taking this for granted this flow of clothing. And then we realized that that's what so affordable, and we don't worry about it because it's basically being my thought pain-point on the countries, um, you in, in, um, unsafe workplaces. So peaked my awareness. I was already on the natural fiber journey and I'd set up textile beat that, that really cemented the fact that now there's a message here. And the other thing that I had been observing is the change in the fibers. And that was, I'm concerned about the ethics. It was really the natural fibers that I was honing back in on. And I started doing some research around, you know, you'd say that most of the clothes was synthetic. And then it was only when I found some information that I cobbled together from the FAO, um, from, well, either reports that you could see that within a decade, we'd gone from having half natural bar, the top synthetic and uploading to basically two thirds synthetic and synthetic fibers are actually plastic fibers. They are derived from fossil fuels and they're very affordable and easy to make much easier than growing a crop and going through all these processes. So, um, but the problem with the synthetic fathers that, um, Dr. Matt Brown's research identified was that they shaped microplastic they're plastic, they're shedding microplastic particles. And every time you wash it, synthetic gum, and it can up to 2000 microplastic particles. So it's, it's one of the biggest pollutants in our ocean is that synthetic clothes,

Speaker 3: 9:56

The other day that, you know, it's not just in the sort of the surface areas and near the coast, they've found them three

Speaker 2: 10:02

Kilometers, deep, just

Speaker 3: 10:04

Thick layers of this embedded.

Speaker 2: 10:08

Yes. And you see often there's a criticism of natural fibers that will, yes, they shed as well. They do shed, but they're shedding biodegradable material that, you know, it may settle into layers. It might not, if it's just out there, it just goes back into nitrogen cartridge and cabin oxygen oxygen, and it's useful. It returns, whereas the, the plastic is there forever. And so this was something that really wasn't common, it's kind of common knowledge now, but it wasn't common knowledge. And so this has been the journey of my work to talk about these things, and also the huge waste of clothing as it became more affordable. And there's two factors are changing the fibers to the synthetics. And then the, um, the modern day slavery, those things increase the consumption two to four times in places like Australia. And we are the second largest consumer floating up to North America. And then that leads to waste and pollution as we just sort of throw things away because they're not what we think they're not mandating cheap and nasty without, you know, we've had enough of them. And the other thing is there's a loss of skills and knowledge. So we we've forgotten how to man, we've forgotten how to value act loads. We're not buying quality paces that might last a long time, you know, investment paces. So I think we have had a huge shift in the last five years where we've suddenly woken up to what's going on with that floods. And, um, yeah, I guess that sort of, I feel I've, I've written a book in the meantime, you know, slow clothing was sort of a consolidation of the work that I've done. And it's really just, um, a simple narrative about act floods. It's not about fashion in any sense. Um, because the problem I feel with talking about fashion is by definition that's ever changing, you know, it's, what's in fashion and what's out of fashion and therefore we will try things away. So I talk about slow clothing, but slow fashion has also become a thing over this time where we've been coming away. That natural thought is a much more comfortable to wear. And when you have natural father clothes, you're not having to wash them as much as the synthetics. And, you know, when you think about the fact that, that, that means, um, yeah, the shedding, as well as the use of resources in, in the simple act of washing your clothes so natural for, but you don't need to wash as much and I don't smell. And, you know, there's just so many things to recommend them, but of course they raise a downside as well. Um, we hear a lot about the water used in cotton production, and yes, it does use water, but you could try and grow tomatoes as I was during the COVID lockdown. You know, you realize how much that checks, water, everything uses water. And the main thing we can do is particularly with cotton gamuts is wear them until they wear out. And then, you know, we just have to reset that, uh, in the winter, you know, you can wear a woolen jumper all weeks without washing it, you know, unless it smells or looks dirty, hello, it doesn't need washing. That's my, that's the view Audra. Anyway, we got to the point where, you know, at home, when my mom would spot, she was married, conscious about that. And she would actually most of his stuff. And she would say, you know, my clothes will last. I still see her wearing today. Some of the clothes that she was when I was growing up, that she had when she was my daughter's wearing them, because something even about the quality of the material is different. Yes, that's right. And so treasuring those things and valuing them is something we are returning to. Whereas for a while we went through this trench, you know, how all the marketing or where this, this is the latest calendar, the latest timeline, but, you know, really we're better having one quality thing and five cheaper things. And that's part of my slow plating manifesto. You know, as part of this process, I came up personally, I do a lot of spot cleaning as well. And just while we're on that, the other thing I do sometimes I find the inside of the colors on the paths that get dirty and perhaps under the arms, you know, where it's a bit closer to your body, although I've started wearing much looser clothes, which is another strategy is that they're not clinging pairing on, you know, you've done it in Washington. It's not either and just pay them and hang them in the shower when you're washing that, freshen them up. So all those sorts of strategies are great. But, um, well, my in the 2014 year, I did a whole year of upcycling where I was reusing and sewing, and that was a deliberate thing. I remember going on ABC radio in the 2013 and saying I was going to do a whole year of, you know, using what I had thrifting perhaps, but not too much that, and mainly, and sewing. And, um, you know, it felt a bit sort of as if I was putting myself out on a plank, but, uh, I, I think now you need to speak your own truth. And that's really what I was doing all my life. You know, it's of sort of accelerated perhaps a little, a little more conscious now in terms of almost everything I way off got my own energy and that off night it, or up cycled it. Um, but I realized that a lot of people, you know, not everybody wants to do that. So that's where I came up, slacklining manifesto of actions and choices that we have. And, you know, the first one is thinking more. And then the second, this is just the whole drive, put them in his natural fibers, treasuring, natural fibers and quality. That's what you mentioned before. You know, quality is really important to think about that. And sometimes we feel I'm going to hand over that amount of money for one thing, but, you know, when you buy quality, it lasts for almost last favor and then local supporting local where we can, because a lot of things, you know, and textile supply chain is quite complex. There's lots of different stages. And sometimes things, you know, the fiber or the clothing can travel around the world, you know, in it's, you know, to get to, you can go off shore back again, sometimes even off shore again. Yeah. Like a couple of different countries on the way. So supporting local makers where we can is, is a useful thing as well. And just having a few clothes, like having less authentic qualities, a good thing, but I'm not very good at being a minimalist. So I get a file alarm.

Speaker 3: 17:32

I think, I think that's where I do quite well. I just have a couple of basic tops. Like everyone always sees me wearing, wearing black because, because I do a lot of gardening and I have little kids, like always got stuff on me. So I figured, all right, I'll just stay straight black on the top. And then I make all my skirts

Speaker 2: 17:50

And I just have three or four wrap skirts. And I just go over anything to palace. I mean, everywhere in the same clothes, I just kinda like, you know, throw a scarf around or something and that dresses it up. Or I just hook it up on a mountain, the gun on my bike. It's the same, same thing I have three or four skips and three or four tops, that's it. And it's going slow floating, or you are leaving all this just by being who you are really. And I think the permaculture life really reflects that because you want simple, easy, comfortable, easy care, flexible, all of those things. So, um, and the, the rest of the 10 actions are caring for things can, and I know you bought fabric and, you know, had it made or, you know, like your skirts as the lumpy, African fabrics and things. And, um, so make revive, which is indigent thrifting and using grandma's clothes and adapting it, which is where you get a bit, might get decisions out. Um, you know, sometimes catting off asleep the bottom of the sleeve, you know, if it's too tight or it's Chevy at the end, just chop it up and, and you can just tend stitch it up. And sometimes also the length of a dress or a skirt can really make a difference where it's sitting on your body. Um, so that's adapting things to work for yourself and you can also use, um, natural dyeing techniques as well. Things like that. It's a great way to adapt. And then the last one is so Virginia where we use what we can and, you know, I do a lot of t-shirt young. Um, and, um, things like that where you, you sort of, um, doing your own dance cycling and turning it into something else. Can you tell us a bit upcycling and down cycling? So can you just describe where you, uh, sort of adding value or the promise sustainable perspective or creative, you know, you want to make it look different. So you're getting a resource that's to hand and, um, it can go two ways. It can go off to landfill will be used as a rag and chat bots and checked out, or it can be up cycle. For example, what I'm wearing today probably can't really see, but I, I can send you a photo, but this is a table I've made this dress out of a tablecloth. And, um, so we don't use these types of costs anymore. You beautiful embroidered ones. So I've just turned this into a loose dress just by making arts a little bit complicated. It's a technique called, um, subtraction cutting, where I've cut out a hole for neck and slaves. And I originally turned the tablecloth into whole chair, a rectangular shape, which is a pillow case. If you imagine a big pillow case, and then you cut a neck and sleeves, and this, this is the leftover bit, um, from the, the rectangle. I didn't want it to be too wide if you know what I mean. So I kind of off the side and I've just used this as a bit of a scarf around my neck and just to cover my shoulders and my arms. So, I mean, it's hard to talk about that. Um, but it's, I've used, I've used a tablecloth that was sitting in recovery, not doing anything of where you wouldn't use it because, you know, when things get spilled on it, it wrecks, it turned it into a garment. And that's what, that's what upcycling is, where you change something. Well, the better in your mind and, you know, you keep wearing it. Whereas the downside is just, it's what happens with Ellie minium cans, you know, they're squashed and they go off again and we are doing a bit of, um, there's talk of recycling textiles. Um, there's a group called block techs in Australia who are looking to extract the fibers and have them respond again down the track, but that in just real upside down cycling, and then upcycling is, it's a bit of a way away. So down cycling is my composting of my clothes. We've got so many holes, so many holes in it. It's good. I think it's, most people don't notice the holes cause there's patterns. I can put a liner in. I do all these sorts of things. I pop them into the compost and then they grow again. And that's, that's the wonderful thing about having natural fibers. You can actually competently do that, even if it takes a little while, but I've done a couple of experiments with, um, the different fibers. Um, in my backyard, I had things, little swatches buried for 11 months and the natural fibers almost completely disappeared in that time, except for the silk. And the synthetics were very visible. Like not, not much change at all there. They just looked like they had a bit of a hard time for a while, but if I'm washed them, which I didn't do, but, you know, they would, they would leave home, which, you know, there's a benefit to that. And I have learned that with swimwear, that synthetics or the go, I was wearing wool for a while and I loved wearing, um, well Mondays and just a single and, um, little, um, or like pants. Um, and I love in it, but it

Speaker 3: 23:46

Didn't have the longevity. I only got three months worth of swimming out of it. So I've had to return to synthetics there. So they do have some benefits, but we just don't need it all to be that. And I think that's where your ethic, um, within your manifesto of care comes in. So, you know, if you have you synthetic, um, betas, then you make sure that you wash them out and you care for them so that they last as long as possible instead of just leaving them Corrine in them or whatever. And anyway, it's, um, it's a bit of an adventure, but I think just focusing on our clothes, the other thing is you have to invest a bit of time and a lot of people don't necessarily want to invest time or have time. You know, there's certainly busy phases in your life. Um, and you'll probably end it in a way more like you've got young children. Um, you know, I definitely find, um, that I've got more time available now because I've can focus on these things. So I think there's ages and stages. Where did you, where did you learn how to? So I think sometimes also it's the not quite knowing where to start with not having the skills. I mean, I'm so thankful when I was, I think I was, my mum always searched. She always made clothes and I, I grew up watching her make clothes. And if something happened, she'd say I'll give it to me and she'd mandate. And then, you know, that still goes on whenever I go demand. Um, or just going to say, Oh, when I was 16, my, my birthday present was a sewing machine and a set of lessons with the seamstress down the road. So she told me how to make patterns and how to read patterns and how to do, you know, colors and buttons and things that my mum wasn't as confident about. She just does clothing, which is brilliant. And actually what I mostly do, but I thought there was such a looking back on it now was the most brilliant gift. And it reminds me of this, um, this quote that I read in your book was it give someone a shirt and they're closed through a day, teach someone to sew and their clothes were lifetime. It's going to like that. Give someone a fish that sort of quote isn't it. And it's beautiful because I, I felt so liberated by that as I was growing up and really wanted to be fashionable when I was in my late teens, I could make whatever I wanted to scan in secondhand shops, pick up stuff, redesign and how I wanted to make whatever I want to do and look up and down the high street of, of, you know, down in chapel street in Melbourne and look to see what all the designers are doing, whip it up myself. And I w I felt so capable that I didn't have to spend an enormous amount of money, but I could still feel good that I could make my own stuff. And now I'm double pragmatic, but it was a great skill to have all throughout my life. And that is, and I really

Speaker 2: 26:44

Understand because that's for me as well. My mother was actually a home economics teacher, but she didn't like, I, I grew up seeing her. So, and grandma Nana lived on the farm with us. Um, but, um, I really feel as if I'm a bit self-taught like, we, you know, you can get the basics and sometimes you underestimate how much, you know, but I've really, I could S I could say that I've really, you teach yourself, you teach yourself by doing, um, and not trying to be overly ambitious, uh, just start with simple things, and then you can work up and you learn how the textiles behave, how the different textiles behave and things. So it is actually what I really love about your book too, is that you actually show a whole lot of techniques of different, different ways of which is brilliant. So stitching hands, ditching, you can do a lot with. And I think that is definitely a place to start. If people don't have any skills, just get a needle and Frank, um, and, you know, I don't just use ordinary cotton. Usually I use crusher Copperman yes, the slightly bigger. And, um, you can do some lovely decorative work. And I mentioned before about cutting off a sleeve, and you can just iron it, turn it up twice, and then just do a couple of rows of hand stitching and use that hand washing technique, you know, instead of putting it through the machine, or if you do feel you want to put it in the machine, at least put it in a laundry bag, so it doesn't get tossed around too much. Um, but, um, that's the place to start use hand stitching or very simple sewing, and you only need a simple sewing machine. You, yes, you can have the fancy oval offer and all that, but really you only need a simple sewing machine. And there's some great, simple patterns now. And, um, have a mint magazine, for example, has patents on their website, and they're relatively simple ones for people for standing out. And, um, and you can, um, use if you're really a beginner then maybe going to the op shop and getting some sheets is a great place to start, because there's a lot of topics lying around, you know, something that you really like, but have a play and a practice with that. And the investment of time in the learning is actually, um, you know, it pays off, as you say, you know, you've got the skills and, and whereas a slightly older generation to more ag, I think that makes a difference. And it makes me a little sad, this whole fast fashion, the availability of clothing, people don't, or younger people just don't appreciate the time, if it, and resources and a skill that goes into it. And so sometimes when they try to do something, you know, that sort of realized that, um, Oh, you know, you can't just magic it up in half an hour. Some things you can lock rack around skirts and that's easy.

Speaker 3: 30:07

So I think one of the things, sometimes it can be overwhelming, overwhelming. It's a little bit, you know, like permaculture when you're starting out, you think, Oh, I just want to have someone to show me what, you know, I want to see it in action. I want to see how people are doing, and what's, what are you doing in your organic come and have a look at a community garden, but with sewing also too, and it's, it's kind of a very old tradition really, isn't it? That you, you get people together in, I don't know, we're back over, but you have sewing circles where people come together. Tell us a bit about how that works and how that's been

Speaker 2: 30:41

Well, um, it's interesting because, um, you know, it is coming back and this is something really, quite lovely about working, um, working with other women and talking about, and problem solving. I think the boomerang bank groups that are bringing up are a great place to see, and there's always, there's always jobs, people who can't, and that is a place, not that they necessarily teach you sewing, that you certainly see the techniques and can teach yourself, you know, you know, the machines are often there to use. And it's also quite a lot of maker spaces emerging as well. Um, and you know, like I do slope planning workshops, and some are just all beginners sometimes, you know, it's, it's not really a place to learn to. So, um, because it's, it's a bit more complex. Like it's, if we're using sewing machines, it's great. If people have got the basics knowing what's going to happen, you know, and how to go around corners and how to make things fit, you know, that's something what you're doing and upcycling, but I just think it it's a bit like cooking is probably easier to learn. Um, and I think that's why awesome clothing is sort of left out. Cause it's a little more complicated. It's not easy, but I think there's heaps of, um, um, YouTube tutorials and that sort of thing as well, which are quite useful to watch. And I think it is that just starting, it's just have a go, um, and be prepared to have to pick some times Try not, but you've actually, sometimes you've just got it. No, it would be much better if I unpick that. And it's also knowing when you're heading off track, you know,

Speaker 3: 32:46

This memory embedded in my brain of like when I was first down to the same studio and ended up with like two tunnels and it's just that 3d spatial awareness, you kind of get into it. You have to invest time. I think that's the thing. And you have children sit with them or grandchildren to sit with them. And so like, you, you, you saw your, your mother, my mother doing doing that. And so it was just a normal natural thing. And whether I was actually doing it next to her, I was still noticing it was, it was kind of, I was absorbing it somehow. And that can't be what you can't see. So when you see it, you realize it's possible. Um, I remember in the early days when I was starting doing this works, a young person said to me, Oh, you know, you mean you can make them, I think this girl just didn't sort of realize that it's not just, um, women who, so that was the point that I was making. I think men too as well. And I know, um, my eldest son is the one that does the selling in his, he's got a couple of little children now and he's often the one that, um, Shane and do things. Um, and also with my daughter, Lily, when she was going to the, um, music festivals, like splendor and that she wanted some Croatian shorts. So we sat down and made them together. I think it's beholden on us with the skills to be trying to pass them on and, and help people understand what's possible. Um, and why that bigger picture? I think that's something that really, you know, about your work is it, it's about learning these skills, but there's a really deep reason why you're doing it because actually shifting the way we think about hiring shifts away, that we think about everything that's around us, because it's that relational thing. It's a philosophy, isn't it. And once you start with one thing, it's like, when you think about philosophy of gardening, it infiltrates into how then you eat and how then you relate with the local farm or the soil or the natural areas around you. It's a similar sort of thing. It begins in one spot where you're passionate and then just kind of ripples through your, through your life. So it's two questions I wanted to ask you. Um, one was about, um, you've just finished a permaculture design course down at all the streets, city farm. And how, how do you then maybe describe slow clothing through a permaculture lens? Has it shifted how you see things at all? And then the second where we go after that, I was wondering if we could talk a bit more about some of the stories that you've heard from the people that you've been talking with in your Churchill fellowship. So I'm to start with it,

Speaker 2: 36:01

Um, through my work in rural reporting, you know, I've been aware of permaculture for a long time. And, um, I did a story with the Sunday mail with Robin playfield. She's up near where you are when she had her book, um, have your permaculture needed to, I think it is. Um, and, um, so I'd always been aware of permaculture and I think the thing about doing the design course, it just fully made me realize that what I'm doing, I could have called it permaculture, clones, you know, really it's all about that because it's, it's natural, it's regenerative. Um, it's, it's resilient when you, you know, using what you've got to hand and all that kind of thing. So,

Speaker 3: 36:48

And it's all the ethics embedded within it. So beautifully.

Speaker 2: 36:52

That's very much in that, um, it's where I've come to and, and, and realizing. So it was, it was actually really affirming to do the permaculture course, and I just loved that the holistic nature of it, it just brings everything into perspective. And I do feel cause we, you know, I, I do feel that there's more place for conversations about clothing within permaculture, because it was kind of like the missing narrative. And that's why I guess I spoke up because I felt the permaculture or the, um, fashion narrative wasn't addressing these ethical concerns. And then I feel there's a little bit of potential for permaculture to have a conversation about quads as well. So, and that really is the slope loading homicides

Speaker 3: 37:45

Zero, I think within this own zero, like what's going on inside the house. You know, I think we kind of bring it into that and sort of use that as the platform. And, but I also like to connect it in with the zone, the zone one, the kitchen down the compost area, like thinking about how it's also, you know, further out too, with the community, uh, like you were saying linking you with that case, what your local economy, um, Hey, sporting. Yeah. The local shops, the local makers, all of that kind of thing. And I'm thinking about the impacts of the dyes. So thinking about, are we impacting the natural area? There's the wilderness side and the zone five, you know, aren't, we, you know, all of these things,

Speaker 2: 38:30

Indigo, stylus growing, it's kind of, it's, it's having a bit of a battle. I think it would be a long time before even collecting your avocado. Your vegetable garden can be your coaster. You know, actually finding though the natural undyed fabric that you can actually use is sometimes the challenge. Um, the raw material there is, um, full-circle fibers is an Australian cotton. Um, that's grown on a farm at a son, George. Um, one part of the process does have to go off shore, um, to Manchester to be[inaudible] and come back here. But all we need is investment in Australia and we can have it fully local. And I do believe that will come in time. So what you're saying, we growing it, we can't do is spinach. And, um, so I think that will change. I did, um, hear someone from the cotton industry speaking and he said, it wasn't, it wasn't no longer the cost of labor. That was an issue. It's actually the cost of electricity in Australia. That's stopping it happening here. So, um, you know, I think it's only a matter of time and, and requests like people need to be asking for Australian fiber and we mainly only grow the cotton, um, alpaca wool as well, and this potential for local wool spinning, um, to happen here. So we keep all then on shore as well. Obviously, you know, the COVID year was such a year of disruption. I think it really raised our awareness of lots of different things and the supply chain, whereas clothing and resources come from was a big awareness. But personally, um, I had my Churchill fellowship travel ready, or ready to rock and roll. That was, I was going to the Northern hemisphere, visiting five, you know, the U S the UK Japan, and had, um, it's just deferred for now, but I was going to be looking at how hands-on upcycling can reduce textile waste and enhance wellbeing. So I continued to, I did a virtual Churchill, uh, where I started, you know, doing interviews with these people, um, that I was going to be meeting face to face. And I've still got more of that to do, but it's really not quite the same as meeting face-to-face. So I think what I've done is sort of evolve and adapt the work and, um, um, broadening it out. I guess that's the benefit of doing the permaculture course, because I realized, you know, this is about skills for living, you know, it's simple living, it's knowing, you know, with, with some marketing too. And so many things are designed for us now that we can go out and buy anything out a little heart desires, but it's not actually very personally satisfying. And I think when you get to a certain stage in life, you realize that, and I think I've got a duty of care to find, educate people around. What are the simple things, what are the important things to be doing in life? And so I'm working with a colleague who did the illustrations in slow clothing and where we're putting together another book, which, you know, at the moment it's working taught title of simple living skills. And it'll be a little bit along that, you know, cause home economics per se is sort of disappeared from the curriculum in some ways it's evolved into other things. And I guess it's just those, those things. Our mothers taught us and fathers taught us, you know, cause my dad was great with gardening and he actually cooked all the meals for us half at home. So he was very active as well, but I just think it's those what matters in life. And, and when we need a few different narratives going on about living simply living locally and how, how actually doing that benefits you wellbeing, you know, because when you're so focused on living directly, you know, that's what it's called living directly instead of living through social media and through other people's eyes and what they think is important, I think living directly using your hands to do things and having your own energy, um, invested, you know, makes you value things. So that's where I'm going more, I mean, that's really much early for next year is to, to kind of, uh, you know, um, and it is about permaculture, but, um, yeah, there's different ways of communicating. And, and I just think, um, you know, the things that cry mom would have taught you and there is such a, I think there's a, um, skills is a known thing. I think someone in South Australia who's conduct terms. So I'm, I'm, I'm not a grandmother yet. And I was talking to my daughter last night, as we were walking, coming home, she was saying, you should really talk, write book or something about what life was like when you were growing up, because you always tell people that, you know, when you were young, that was the last point that Australia moved to one kind of way of life and it was local and it was DIY and it was the resourcefulness of saving the water. Yeah. Take it out a watering, you pop ponds with it. And you know, just those little simple things like it amazes me that often it's the simplest is the best. And I feel as if we're coming full circle on this and, um, you know, we've had the razzle dazzle life and some people, everyone comes to is a different stage of awareness, but I kind of feel as if I've arrived here, realizing that a simple ventek life is, is the most relaxed, you know, like mental health is such a big issue now, but when, when you just concentrate on simple things that can manage for yourself and, and being creative, it keeps your brain active and alive as well, which, you know, there's links to foreign. Chevony there

Speaker 3: 45:20

With the COVID world when we are also a lot more local and forced to be enforced, to be more home-based that it, it gives us something really tangible and practical to, to learn and to lean into, I think, you know, this, you know, regaining these skills. So thank you so much for taking the time. And I look forward to you a new book. I love slow clothing. I'm going to put all the links below. Um, is there anywhere in particular that you can, you want me to send people to find out information about your work? If you have a website that has all those that you've been doing, your virtual Churchill.

Speaker 2: 46:04

Yes. So that's textile beach.com. Um, and the book is often available in libraries. So I mean, I sell it through my website, but I know there's 20 copies in Brisbane library. And, um, you know, that's where I'd, I liked as the first port of call, I think just borrow it and just have a read, but I just think it's, it's people putting up their own Chana and they will notice a lot all around them about other things when you change your mindset to, you know, just simple living. So I know other people

Speaker 3: 46:35

To come in and do it with you, I think.

Speaker 2: 46:38

Yes, yes. You need to have fellow travelers because it's so easy to be distracted by the bright and shiny things. Isn't it? You need to find the authentic people who are living in the real world and, and also living simply, um, you know, fight for plan a day. I don't know whether you saw that on the ABC, but Craig root castle, following war on waste, you know, like, and we've got lived experience of climate change now and you know, people are dying and I think that the heat just starting off again this year, so we've really got to change our ways. And I think it's just starting with the small things, you know, just making, making small changes. That's really what I'd recommend. And there's no, there's no script, you know, we make up our own. So

Speaker 3: 47:30

I just think start looking and start listening and just start like wasting less. That's a really, really good entry to living simply. So thanks. Thank you, Jane. Have a wonderful holiday season and I look forward to catching up with you again next year. Right?

Speaker 1: 47:53

So that's all for today. Thanks so much for joining us head on over to my YouTube channel, the links below, and then you'll be able to watch this conversation, but also make sure that you subscribe because that way we notified of all new films that come out and also the release of the extended to her of llamas. Ecovillage where we go into the landscape and the common spaces too. And also you'll get notified of all the new, all the new interviews and conversations that come out. So thanks again for joining us, have a great week and I'll see you next time.