Welcome to this special series of climate conversations recorded during COP26 Climate Conference in Glasgow , November 2021.
In November, while the global climate conference (COP26) was taking place I recorded a series of conversations. I did wish I could have been there to be part of this global connection of movements and activism happening around the meeting of world leaders who are putting their plans on the table to limit climate change to below 1.5. Disappointingly, the Australian PM embarrassed himself with putting fossil fuels ahead of the planet. I decided it didn't make sense for me to fly there, but I still wanted to know what was going on, and share this with you, so each couple of days I checked in with friends who were there.
In this conversation, Fritjof Capra - world renown scholar-activist, systems thinker, author, educator - joins Morag Gamble of the Permaculture Education Institute to share his reflections on COP26 and the shift in thinking and action needed to address the multiple crises humanity faces this decade.
Recorded: 11 November 2021
ABOUT FRITJOF CAPRA Fritjof Capra, Ph.D., physicist and systems theorist, is a Fellow of Schumacher College (UK) and serves on the Council of Earth Charter International. Fritjof is the author of several international bestsellers, including The Tao of Physics and The Web of Life. He is coauthor, with Pier Luigi Luisi, of the multidisciplinary textbook, The Systems View of Life. Capra’s online course is based on his textbook. Find out more about Fritjof here: https://fritjofcapra.net
Our way of sharing our love for this planet and for life, is by teaching permaculture teachers who are locally adapting this around the world - finding ways to apply the planet care ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. We host global conversations and learning communities on 6 continents.
We broadcast from a solar powered studio in the midst of a permaculture ecovillage food forest on beautiful Gubbi Gubbi country. I acknowledge this is and always will be Aboriginal land, pay my respects to elders past and present, and extend my respect to indigenous cultures and knowledge systems across the planet.
You can also watch Sense-Making in a Changing World on Youtube.
SUBSCRIBE for notification of each new episode. Please leave us a 5 star review - it really it does help people find and myceliate this show.
Speaker 1:
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:
Welcome for each off. It's absolutely wonderful to have you join me here on this conversation about cop 26. But before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm meeting here with you today. I'm here on the land of the Gubbi Gubbi people on the banks of the[inaudible] river. Um, otherwise known as crystal waters, permaculture village. So for the viewers and listeners, I'd just like to give a brief introduction to free job. So preacher is a renowned scholar activist. Who's been working for decades in this space of educating around climate change around ecological worldview, about systems thinking and international best-selling author, who has a new book out called patterns of connection essays, essential essays from five decades, uh, which we recently did a conversation about talking about what's in that book as well. So, um, thank you for accepting my invitation to reflect on what's been going on in the world right now. That's been in everyone's minds and everyone's conversations. So welcome, and thank you.
Speaker 3:
Thank you, Maura. Uh, I'm very happy to give you my perspective on, uh, the, uh, climate summit cop 26 in Glasgow. And, uh, I want to say right at the beginning that I share this perspective with many scholars and activists, I want to acknowledge, especially Hazel Henderson, uh, bill McKibben, George Mambo, uh, David Korten and Vandana Shiva, all of whom have very strongly influenced my thinking. So the latest climate report by the IPC has told us that we need to cut emissions in half by the end of this decade, in order to have any hope of achieving a limitation of global heating to 1.5 degrees Celsius as pledged in the Paris agreement at cop 26, we have heard about complex promises and mechanisms for achieving this skull. But in fact, the basic requirement is very simple. We have to keep fossil fuels in the ground. That's all there is to it in spite of this clear goal. And in spite of the fact that we have the technologies and the financial means for the transition to renewable energy sources, most governments with major fossil fuel reserves plan to continue exploiting them. And even to increase the drilling oil and natural gas. And in this way, they threatened the very survival of human civilization. And this is true, even for nations like the United States, who claim to be at the forefront of the transition to renewable energies. Even here they plan on increasing the drilling for oil in 2020 governments around the world spent$450 billion in direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry while investments in clean energy, by that same industry amounted to just about 1% of the total expenditures. This means that almost everything set at cop 26 by powerful governments is a distraction from the central goal of keeping fossil fuels in the ground. And in fact, destruction is a big business in Glasgow. I just learned the other day that, uh, there are 503 fossil fuel lobbyists accredited to the climate summit. Incredibly. This is a number larger than any national delegation. So why do a political and corporate leaders spend all these billions of dollars on the destruction of life on earth? Well, the reason is that politics in most parts of the world is dominated by corporate interests. In other words, there's widespread systemic corruption. And at the core of corporate interests, there is an obsession with unlimited growth with the irrational illusion that perpetually economic and corporate growth are possible on a finite planet economists today, identify economic success with GDP growth, regardless of where the real value is either created or destroyed in the process money rather than the wellbeing of people and of the community of life has become the defining measure of value. In our global economy in this economic system, perpetual growth is pursued relentlessly by promoting excessive consumption and a throwaway economy that is energy intensive generating waste and pollution depleting the Earth's natural resources, increasing economic inequality and driving the climate emergency. In the words of activists and author David Korten money is useful as a tool, but becomes dangerous. When embraced as a purpose, we will prosper in the pursuit of life, or we will perish in the pursuit of money. The choice is ours. That really says it all for me. Now, of course, growth is not all bad. In fact, growth is a central characteristic of all life, but growth in nature is neither linear nor unlimited while certain parts of organisms or ecosystems grow. Others decline releasing and recycling their components, which become resources for new growth. This kind of multifaceted balanced growth is very well known to biologists and ecologists. And I like to call it qualitative growth to contrast it with the concept of quantitative growth measured in terms of this undifferentiated index of the GDP used by today's economists, quantitative growth is growth that enhances the quality of life by continual generation and regeneration. It includes an increase of complexity, maturity, and sophistication. Now, today we have the science and the technology, and we also have the financial means to transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy from quantitative extractive growth to qualitative regenerative growth. Let me just give you two examples. The most effective way to reduce emissions is to replace the combustion of coil of coal oil or natural gas by electricity, electricity generated with solar energy and to do this for all our energy needs. Now totally electrifying. For example, the United would reduce our energy use by about 50%. Why? Because simply electricity is so much more efficient than combustion. It would also save us a lot of money because solar generated electricity is the cheapest power source. Renewable energy sources are now, uh, the cheapest available. And of course the whole transition and restructuring to electricity would create millions and millions of jobs. My second example is about planting trees, a recent study by scientists, scientists at the prestigious Swiss university known by its initials. German initials. ETH has shown that there's enough suitable land around the world to plant 1.2 trillion trees. And of course the study also showed which trees to plant where and in which season and so on, so that the whole enterprise is effective. This they estimated would remove two thirds of all carbon emission emitted during the whole history of humanity. So we have the solution, but you see advancing scientific arguments and documenting technological achievements is not enough. It's not enough because our so-called world leaders are not interested in reason and evidence. They're interested in money and in power. And this means that we also need political activism. Now, fortunately, there are now millions of activists around the world who have chosen the pursuit of life in David cotton's words, the pursuit of life, instead of the pursuit of money from youth movements, like the sunrise movement, extinction rebellion Fridays for future. And so on to the more recent fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty proposed by thousands of scientists to movements like Europe beyond coal or the beyond oil and gas Alliance started by Denmark and Costa Rica. These movements are making the voices heard at Glasgow and they need our support. They embody the political will and leadership that we need for overcoming the climate crisis and for protecting the cogni continuation and flourishing of life on earth. So that in a nutshell is my perspective. Thank you again for having me
Speaker 2:
Thank you for each of, and what you say about the need for this energy transition and the reforestation of our planet being one of the reforestation being one of the simplest and most accessible ways to reverse climate change. Um, I know you've also talked in the past about, uh, the need to focus differently on, on our food system. Could you just mention briefly what your perspective on that?
Speaker 3:
Well, uh, to begin with, we need to realize something that is not generally discussed and that is that we need to radically reduce our emissions, but also there is already too, not too much CO2 in the atmosphere. So we need to be able to draw down CO2 from the atmosphere. And the only way is with the photosynthesis in plants, like the one behind you here in trees and in organic soil, organic soil is a living soil and carbon is the chemical backbone of life. Therefore organic soil continually draws down carbon from the atmosphere and locks it up in organic substances. And this is the only technology we know the technology that has been proven for billions of years, that that works to draw down CO2. And as the Swiss study says, this massive planting of trees, which is also by far the cheapest way of, of, um, reducing the CO2, you know, it's, it's the way to go now for me agroecology or, uh, regenerative farming or organic farming, sustainable agriculture, all these terms really describe the same, uh, approach, uh, is the, uh, grain grant example of what I call a systemic solution to our problems. That is a solution that doesn't see any problem in isolated way, but connects it with other problems and therefore solve several problems at the same time. So if we were to shift massively not only from fossil fuels to renewables, but also from industrial agriculture to agroecology, this would solve or help to solve at least three major problems. First, it would have a huge AMPA impact on, uh, our energy consumption because industrial agriculture spends about 20% of all the fossil fuels, at least in the United States on growing, transporting and processing food and agriculture, it doesn't have that massive energy input. The organically grown food of course, would have a tremendous impact on public health because we know that that many of our, uh, serious diseases are a direct consequence of our diet. And finally, as I said before, it would draw down CO2 from the atmosphere and help alleviate the climate crisis. So, um, agriculture and the planting of trees to me, uh, you know, essential elements of climate strategy. And it's very sad to see that, uh, there are all these climate activists on the one hand and a lot of activists about, uh, sustainable agriculture hold foods and, you know, healthy eating, healthy lifestyles and, and so on. And the two don't connect or at least connect very little. So I think we need to form coalitions between people interested in sustainable regenerative agriculture and, uh, people, uh, developing climate policies. That's extremely important.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. And I was one final question was that as you were in your first reflection, you were talking about, we need to support activists. What in your words would be the best way that you feel that we can support those who are listening. What's the best way to support the activists who are stepping up and stepping out and speaking up?
Speaker 3:
Well, I have two suggestions. One is for our youth to join them, which is very easy because all our youth are interconnected in social media and they all have their social networks. So join the activist groups, find out who they are and join them. That's the simple thing. Uh, the other thing is that I have noticed that these climate activists have all the right values and have tremendous energy, and they also have great skills of organizing. And on the other end of the age spectrum, we have a group of senior of elders, like the ones I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation, and there are many others, and we have worked for many decades to develop a con a systemic conception of life that is completely consistent with the goals of the young activists. So we can tell those young activists that, uh, the forefront of modern science is supporting what they do and is providing a conceptual framework that undergirds what they are doing. And so my dream is to make this connection between no young active, uh, very energetic activists. And then, uh, the older scholars who have to develop the wisdom of systemic thinking. That's, that's what I'd like to see
Speaker 2:
Last year, that dream too. And with, with that thought, I thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your reflections on what's going on in the world right now. And, um, so much food for thought there. And as you're saying, some very tangible and accessible ways that we can all be part